Poll: Would you favor merit-based league structure for 2015-2016?
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(S7)PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
chrislindy Offline
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Post: #1
(S7)PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
We've had ample discussion amongst active owners on some of the trades that have been made this year. I'd like to make a couple of proposals to address this and avoid whatever difficulties we're having coming to an agreement on trades, approvals, and the legitimacy of what has become common this season.

PROPOSAL 1) Create a Premiere League where the top teams each season are grouped together and the dregs of a year ago get to fight it out in a Liga B to earn promotion for the next season.

* If we wanted to get this off the ground immediately, I'd recommend basing this on regular season records with the Top 4 from each league becoming Premiere and the others going to Liga B. Promotion can be discussed now or next year, but I propose two promotions from Liga B (regular season and tourney champ) and the bottom two from Premiere dropping each season.
* Alternatively, we can start this next season with the same rules above. Understand if some wouldn't want to be demoted for 2015-2016 without knowledge of the idea.
* One-off - All NEW members must earn their keep in Liga B to be promoted. If a Premiere team from the prior season does not return, we have a queue of last-minute promotions that can be moved up to replace the folded Premiere team.

This is especially good because it makes someone like myself reconsider sitting out a year and losing Premiere status. Also makes the next proposal come into play for trades.

PROPOSAL 2) KEEPER LEAGUE: Would these also-rans give up their best starter for two good, but lesser players just to bump their also-ran stat lines for a few weeks? Maybe if he's a senior or unlikely to return the following season, but there'd be some forethought into boosting someone else's lineup only to make yours mediocre. Would also add some intrigue to the draft... do you want the senior who could be good or the sophomore who will be not quite as good THIS season but may be a stud the year after?
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2015 04:13 PM by HarveyGlass.)
01-12-2015 12:26 PM
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ULismyhothot Offline
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Post: #2
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Speaking of Euro football structuring, a concurrent Champions League tourney where the prior season top 4 teams from each league/division (potentially) play two diff opponents each week--one for the regular season standings and one for the CEBE CL tournament--would be fun if the schedules weren't so imbalanced week-to-week. And added man hours for score-keeping.

In a perfect world, we could also ditch the postseason playoffs format (instead of regular season standings that would fairly end at the start of the conference tourney, not February) because it's suboptimal to crown small sample size single elimination champions after months and months of results. But that wouldn't be as inclusive or fun for those not in the chase.
01-12-2015 03:51 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Too elitist, IMO. Harv would never go for it and I'm not sure that I would be in favor of it. At the beginning of the season I tossed out the idea of dividing the two conferences by tenure. Which I thought was a good idea but I don't know if that's the answer really. There is no ultimate answer that I can think of to this question. I'm in a damn good conference. What if cook gets hurt and I move to 5th? I'm automatically D-Leagued? I think one of my problems is that I'm against the "you're not as good as us" mentality. We're trying to grow not turn people off with an elitist mentality. The shooters would have been D-Leagued based on almost any criteria and look at them kicking our asses. I think the new guys have taken their lumps pretty well. I think we just need to adjust to the current landscape. Which is what I'm trying to do. Tokoto is a reserve role for the Ballers and based on season averages, Blossomgame helps me in points and FT% off the top of my head. He's trending up of course. The no first round trade rule helped a lot. The peaks have one of the best players on the worst team. He could have easily been snatched up and improved his team in the process. Buzz needs a forward. Rozier could have been had while helping buzz in the process.
01-12-2015 04:15 PM
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ULismyhothot Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 03:51 PM)ULismyhothot Wrote:  In a perfect world, we could also ditch the postseason playoffs format (instead of regular season standings that would fairly end at the start of the conference tourney, not February) because it's suboptimal to crown small sample size single elimination champions after months and months of results. But that wouldn't be as inclusive or fun for those not in the chase.

I should also add that like the euro football structure, extending the regular season and eliminating the single elim playoff would increase the sample size for those seeking promotion/avoiding relegation, making it a) more fair and b) marginally more exciting/heartbreaking as well as the season draws to a close. Just something to chew on if we ever seriously entertain the relegation model.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 04:28 PM by ULismyhothot.)
01-12-2015 04:27 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
We're mimicking college basketball and the NCAA tournament. Not a euro football league.
01-12-2015 04:38 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
I hear what you are saying, DHC, but I don't see why relegation has to be viewed as elitist. The competitive teams that really push will likely end up on top. The casual guys who don't take it as seriously as J will mostly end up in the other league. There will be a middle tier that oscillates from year to year. Sure, someone will lose Jeremy Hazell and Jerian Grant in consecutive seasons (let's be real, I know where you're going with this) and spend a couple years in Liga B, but on the whole I think the competition will be representative of the speed each owner desires and make it more fun for all parties. If guys like you, J, Harv, me, etc. were in a league together, passing this 2-for-1 crap would be decidedly less common.
01-12-2015 04:40 PM
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J-Rye_UL Offline
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Post: #7
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
I love how being good at something means I "take it more seriously than others"

Sorry for being a try hard, i guess. Would you like me to take it less seriously, or just be worse at it?
01-12-2015 04:44 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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Post: #8
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Not asking you to take it less seriously. Just don't fleece the other guys.
01-12-2015 04:50 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
I'd be willing to give it a shot because I think the competition would be a hell of a good time. I just don't want to push people away really. Your idea holds its merit no doubt. I like the two promotion idea. It makes things more fun in a different way. But I don't want to get demoted to D-League and do a hell of a job and dominate and win the regular season and tourney and essentially hang a NIT banner.
01-12-2015 04:50 PM
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J-Rye_UL Offline
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Post: #10
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 04:50 PM)chrislindy Wrote:  Just don't fleece the other guys.
[Image: disney_logo_gif_2_by_nintendofanboy94-d61ne2w.gif]

Do you know where I'm headed with this?
01-12-2015 05:03 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 04:50 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  But I don't want to get demoted to D-League and do a hell of a job and dominate and win the regular season and tourney and essentially hang a NIT banner.

But imagine the additional flame material an NIT title would provide? Would you even put it in your sig?

The more you talk, the more I like this idea.
01-12-2015 05:28 PM
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HarveyGlass Offline
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Post: #12
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
lol J

Wait, so you're saying the B-League wouldn't be in the same season-ending tournament as the A-League? I really don't care for that idea at all off the top of my head. I am intrigued by the promotion idea and even like Hothot's CL idea but like DHC said, this is college hoops and unless we're just full of 20+ teams then we should all be in one, single-elimination tourney imo.

"The dream lives on." - Howard Schnellenberger
01-12-2015 05:31 PM
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ULismyhothot Offline
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Post: #13
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 04:38 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  We're mimicking college basketball and the NCAA tournament. Not a euro football league.

Eh, aren't we, more accurately, mimicking the H2H fantasy format most fantasy sports use? Even if this mimicking college ball/NCAA Tournament reason were true and intentional here in CEBE land, so what? Is there some sentimental, warm fuzzy connection to how the real sport is run that makes the running the fantasy version exactly the same any better? I don't necessarily think so. Plus, there's no in-season trading or preseason drafts in college basketball. Different conferences/divisions don't share players. We don't even use games from conference tournaments or the NCAA tournament. We cherry pick positive stats, with the exception of FT% in some cases, hah. My argument here is that fantasy is not reality and we're better for it. The only real mimicking is the single-elimination playoff, right?

As an aside, I've played in roto baseball leagues that were just as fun and always more rewarding/fair than H2H leagues that use data from 162 games(!) and then decide the "champion" with a single elimination playoff. I would argue baseball is more conducive to roto structuring but I think it's a valid discussion point here especially if we entertain promotion/relegation.
01-12-2015 06:52 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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Post: #14
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 06:52 PM)ULismyhothot Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 04:38 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  We're mimicking college basketball and the NCAA tournament. Not a euro football league.
Is there some sentimental, warm fuzzy connection to how the real sport is run that makes the running the fantasy version exactly the same any better?

Yes. Especially since the masses would agree that march madness is the most fun and exciting post season in sports. Even despite the fact that it's not as popular as the NFL or as viewed as the super bowl. Changing the CEACC post season to some kind of extended regular season BS is an awful idea. Why would any team outside of the top 5 even give a shit about what happens from here on out? At least with the tournament any early injuries or weird schedules mean nothing and you start fresh. It's all zero to zero. Upsets can happen. Gives people a reason to keep playing.
01-12-2015 07:26 PM
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ULismyhothot Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 07:26 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Why would any team outside of the top 5 even give a shit about what happens from here on out?

relegation, for one
01-12-2015 07:40 PM
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J-Rye_UL Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
If anyone should be a proponent of regular season success carrying more weight, it's this guy. But I'm not. Because it's unfamiliar to me and I don't handle change well. I don't think I really understand this roto stuff either and how it would apply to multiple categories. Would we basically be competing in the RyePom rankings?
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 07:53 PM by J-Rye_UL.)
01-12-2015 07:52 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Root? I am root?
01-12-2015 07:53 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Just a suggestion, make one of the leagues (coastal) the A league and make the other league (atlantic) the B league, keep most everything else the same. This keeps the tournament and gives a champion for both leagues and a final champion
01-12-2015 08:11 PM
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FrozenGlacier Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.
01-12-2015 08:15 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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Post: #20
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:15 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.

Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.
01-12-2015 08:34 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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Post: #21
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:15 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.

Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

Just for S&G, who would you have? I haven't been running my updated stats this year, but I'd guess Okafor or Jerian Grant. Rozier is definitely making a play and Christmas has been very strong.
01-12-2015 08:43 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Grant, Rozier, Christmas then Okafor.
01-12-2015 08:56 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

That might be the funniest and perhaps the most inaccurate statement ever!!!!! That is in regards to both statements.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 08:58 PM by captainblackbeard13.)
01-12-2015 08:57 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Well if you're not a Duke fan, I don't get it.
01-12-2015 09:01 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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Post: #25
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:57 PM)captainblackbeard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

That might be the funniest and perhaps the most inaccurate statement ever!!!!!

After a 5 minute consult with YTD stats, I'd be inclined to agree that Okafor is not the CEBE MVP. Perhaps ACC POY, but not our MVP. In order, my rankings show the following:

1) Rakeem Christmas (defense puts him over the top)
2) Jahlil Okafor
3) Jerian Grant
4) Terry Rozier
5) Olivier Hanlan
6) Angel Rodriguez
7) Montrezl Harrell
8) Devin Thomas
9) Kennedy Meeks (this is where J-Rye goes into a rage)
10) Pat Connaughton

Keep in mind that these rankings do not take into account the FT shooting, either. As poorly as Okafor shoots the FT (and as often as he goes to the line), I could easily argue for dropping him down to 6th just ahead of two other bad FT shooters in Harrell and Thomas.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 09:05 PM by chrislindy.)
01-12-2015 09:03 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
I am a Duke fan, Frozen Glacier is not, I don't even know what makes you think he is. I on the other hand am a Duke fan and there is no way you can reasonably argue that Okafor is not the MVP and should not have been taken number 1 overall in both drafts.
01-12-2015 09:05 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Because the points and rebounds alone do not make a great fantasy player. Now certainly this isn't ALL on him, but take note that both teams who own him are under .500 and in the bottom half of the standings. Christmas is in a similar "in demand" position, beats him soundly in the defense and FT categories, and is hardly behind at all in scoring and rebounding. Assists are about even, but Christmas leads that stat.

I'm as stunned as anyone, but Rakeem Christmas has been the best player in this league to-date.
01-12-2015 09:10 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:03 PM)chrislindy Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:57 PM)captainblackbeard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

That might be the funniest and perhaps the most inaccurate statement ever!!!!!

After a 5 minute consult with YTD stats, I'd be inclined to agree that Okafor is not the CEBE MVP. Perhaps ACC POY, but not our MVP. In order, my rankings show the following:

1) Rakeem Christmas (defense puts him over the top)
2) Jahlil Okafor
3) Jerian Grant
4) Terry Rozier
5) Olivier Hanlan
6) Angel Rodriguez
7) Montrezl Harrell
8) Devin Thomas
9) Kennedy Meeks (this is where J-Rye goes into a rage)
10) Pat Connaughton

Keep in mind that these rankings do not take into account the FT shooting, either. As poorly as Okafor shoots the FT (and as often as he goes to the line), I could easily argue for dropping him down to 6th just ahead of two other bad FT shooters in Harrell and Thomas.

FT shooting is why I drop him to fourth. He can lose that category for you solely.
01-12-2015 09:10 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:10 PM)chrislindy Wrote:  Because the points and rebounds alone do not make a great fantasy player. Now certainly this isn't ALL on him, but take note that both teams who own him are under .500 and in the bottom half of the standings.

Shhh. Don't give away draft strategy. Lol.
01-12-2015 09:13 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:03 PM)chrislindy Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:57 PM)captainblackbeard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

That might be the funniest and perhaps the most inaccurate statement ever!!!!!

1) Rakeem Christmas (defense puts him over the top)
2) Jahlil Okafor
3) Jerian Grant
4) Terry Rozier
5) Olivier Hanlan
6) Angel Rodriguez
7) Montrezl Harrell
8) Devin Thomas
9) Kennedy Meeks (this is where J-Rye goes into a rage)
10) Pat Connaughton

Your also looking at the stats for the year. Okafor's stats have gotten better every week in all categories (including ft shooting). It is just a matter of opinion. Christmas has taken a backseat to Cooney and Gbinije lately and his stats are not going to improve down the stretch. Okafor will probably average 22-25 points the rest of the way with 10+ rebounds and 3-4 defense (That is the MVP right there).
01-12-2015 09:14 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
He'll certainly have an opportunity to prove that, but that's as speculative as me declaring the same sorts of numbers for Rozier moving forward.
01-12-2015 09:16 PM
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:15 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.

Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

Why on freaking Earth would you think I am a Duke fan? Thats about the stupidest comment I have ever heard.
01-12-2015 09:19 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Haha.
01-12-2015 09:21 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
Maybe, but if you look at gameplans, opponents, and the make-up of each team, I have about a 70-75% chance of being right. Rozier plays on a putrid offensive teams with multiple scoring options which causes a lot more of uncertainty. I would give a 40-50% chance that his recent output continues.
01-12-2015 09:21 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:19 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  [quote='FrozenGlacier' pid='51679' dateline='1421111741']

Why on freaking Earth would you think I am a Duke fan? Thats about the stupidest comment I have ever heard.

HAHA I read his mind.
01-12-2015 09:23 PM
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DieHardCards Offline
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Post: #36
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:19 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:15 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.

Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

Why on freaking Earth would you think I am a Duke fan? Thats about the stupidest comment I have ever heard.

Because you'd have to be a homer to continually repeat that he's the league MVP or just not have a great grasp on how to win. Obviously the latter.


Jackson Trade?
To: DieHardCards
Would you consider Jackson and Sulaimon for Cook?

^^That'd be the stupidest freaking comment I've ever heard.
01-12-2015 09:25 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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Post: #37
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:21 PM)captainblackbeard13 Wrote:  Maybe, but if you look at gameplans, opponents, and the make-up of each team, I have about a 70-75% chance of being right. Rozier plays on a putrid offensive teams with multiple scoring options which causes a lot more of uncertainty. I would give a 40-50% chance that his recent output continues.

You base this on linear regression, Monte Carlo simulations, or Yenkoutyeras Approximation?
01-12-2015 09:27 PM
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captainblackbeard13 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish.

It certainly seems that way this year.
01-12-2015 09:28 PM
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FrozenGlacier Offline
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Post: #39
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
(01-12-2015 09:25 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 09:19 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)DieHardCards Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:15 PM)FrozenGlacier Wrote:  This is a terrible idea. If I had a top 3 pick instead of #7 I would be blowing people out. Also, not having the league mvp for 3 straight weeks has made my record abysmal. Putting people who finished bad one year into a sub league would be terrible because they just as easily could win it the next.

Okay. Firstly, with a snake draft is rather have seventh pick than first. Look at the history of the league and you'll see that the draft order has nothing to do with finish. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, Okafor is not the league MVP. I know you're a Duke fan but he's just not.

Why on freaking Earth would you think I am a Duke fan? Thats about the stupidest comment I have ever heard.

Because you'd have to be a homer to continually repeat that he's the league MVP or just not have a great grasp on how to win. Obviously the latter.


Jackson Trade?
To: DieHardCards
Would you consider Jackson and Sulaimon for Cook?

^^That'd be the stupidest freaking comment I've ever heard.

I got a player better than Cook for less. You obviously overvalue your own players. Its a common mistake noobies make.
01-12-2015 09:28 PM
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chrislindy Offline
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Post: #40
RE: PROPOSAL: "Premiere" League and Liga B
League Standing by Draft Order (Pick in parentheses):

1 - Freeballers (1)
2 - Shooters (5)
3 - Dominators (6)
4 - Fuglys (1)
5 - Empire (6)
6 - Buzz (8)
7 - Maintenance (3)
8 - Revenge (5)

Average pick of top half of the league: 4.375, just slightly better than average draft order (4.5)
01-12-2015 09:32 PM
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